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151 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

Joanna wrote: >I'm not sure if prisons don't help local economies. I used to live in a prison town (Plattsburgh). Most of the guards there used to have manufacturing jobs, so if they could not have gotten prison jobs, they would have starved. But overall everyone loses: http://realcostofprisons ...

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Author:	Dennis Claxton
Date:	Mon Oct 31 14:52:38 PDT 2011

152 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote: > Also, as Christian asked earlier today: "What does 'prison abolition' actually mean? I still don't know and can't get a clear answer and thus never subscribed." > > Doug Well, it mostly means ending the ...

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Author:	Dennis Redmond
Date:	Mon Oct 31 14:43:41 PDT 2011

153 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 2:33 PM, Dennis Claxton <ddclaxton at earthlink.net> wrote: > > Joanna wrote: > >>The current prison industrial complex regime > > We seem to be stuck with this term but there are real problems with it. The hyphen is helpful here: "prison-industrial." They are still too separate ...

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Author:	Eric Beck
Date:	Mon Oct 31 14:10:15 PDT 2011

154 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

Jordan wrote: >So: who benefits from the latest technological gizmos that get >developed, procured, and retired in the prison world? Wait, I do know what you mean I think. Stuff like below? Sure, that's part of the story, but it's not so big. Prisons still depend on old-fashioned ...

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Author:	Dennis Claxton
Date:	Mon Oct 31 14:03:01 PDT 2011

155 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

Jordan wrote: >So maybe I'm not "people" ...? Google "prison labor" and you'll see what I mean. >So: who benefits from the latest technological gizmos that get >developed, procured, and retired in the prison world? I don't know what gizmos you mean. >I'll see your Parenti and raise ...

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Author:	Dennis Claxton
Date:	Mon Oct 31 13:44:16 PDT 2011

156 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

>Also, as Christian asked earlier today: "What does 'prison abolition' actually mean? I still don't know and can't get a clear answer and thus never subscribed." > >Doug Angela Davis says she chose the term because people think the idea of getting rid of prisons is unthinkable, just as ...

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Author:	Dennis Claxton
Date:	Mon Oct 31 13:29:08 PDT 2011

157 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

Dennis Claxton quotes Christian Parenti: >> Simply put, the scale of spending on prisons, though >> growing rapidly, will never match the military budget; >> nor will prisons produce anywhere near the same >> technological and industrial spin-off. " It's an analog, not a 1:1 match. I don't get his complaint. Some ...

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Author:	Jordan Hayes
Date:	Mon Oct 31 13:25:16 PDT 2011

158 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

On Oct 31, 2011, at 4:09 PM, Dennis Claxton wrote: > "Another writer of the era who covered the expanding prison population and attacked the prison-industrial complex was Christian Parenti, who later disavowed the term before the publication of his book, Lockdown America (2000). How, then, should the left critique ...

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Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Oct 31 13:15:39 PDT 2011

159 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

On Oct 31, 2011, at 3:43 PM, wrobert at uci.edu wrote: > Prisons are only one part of a web of > disciplinary apparatuses, deeply linked into the ongoing project of > racialization in this country Yes, but the incarceration rate of white men - not quite 300 per 100,000 - would still ...

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Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Oct 31 13:12:41 PDT 2011

160 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

Jordan wrote: >Certain industries do, right? Those who build prisons, for instance. Sure. But the analogy to the military overstates the scale. >The Wikipedia page is pretty good on this: That page also has this from Christian Parenti: "Another writer of the era who covered the expanding prison population and attacked ...

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Author:	Dennis Claxton
Date:	Mon Oct 31 13:09:26 PDT 2011

161 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

Dennis Claxton writes: > Joanna wrote: > >>The current prison industrial complex regime > > We seem to be stuck with this term but there are real > problems with it. It suggests that industry makes a lot > money from prison labor but that's not the case. Certain industries do, right? Those who build prisons ...

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Author:	Jordan Hayes
Date:	Mon Oct 31 12:59:39 PDT 2011

162 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

A couple points. I think that its a mistake to think of the prison as a separate institution within Davis' analysis, rather its tied to a larger disciplinary apparatus, tied in with the stop and frisk policies, for instance. Prisons are only one part of a web of disciplinary apparatuses, deeply ...

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Author:	wrobert at uci.edu
Date:	Mon Oct 31 12:43:01 PDT 2011

163 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

What Doug said was fine. I was thinking back to the 60s in Berkeley when people were telling others what they should think or how they should act. Big turnoff. Identifying with Troy Davis is good, but demanding that the movement take a stand can be a problem. On Mon, Oct ...

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Author:	michael perelman
Date:	Mon Oct 31 12:41:28 PDT 2011

164 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

Joanna wrote: >The current prison industrial complex regime We seem to be stuck with this term but there are real problems with it. It suggests that industry makes a lot money from prison labor but that's not the case. Industry and prison labor are not a good fit and companies ...

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Author:	Dennis Claxton
Date:	Mon Oct 31 12:33:36 PDT 2011

165 [lbo-talk] lbo-talk Digest, Vol 1736, Issue 3 -- rank: 858

On Oct 31, 2011, at 2:55 PM, SA wrote: > It sounds like you're saying anybody who isn't already on board with "our" movement, whose consciousness isn't already where yours or mine is, can go fuck themselves There are a lot of people (hi Carrol!) who view politics ...

Document Size:	5028
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Oct 31 12:02:40 PDT 2011