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166 [lbo-talk] US Civil War (was Platypus etc) -- rank: 773

"Some sort of conflict" is a lot broader than "bloody war." ----- Original Message ---- From: James Heartfield <Heartfield at blueyonder.co.uk> But that is a false opposition. Nothing happens by economics alone. There would have had to have been some kind of conflict for the slaveowners to have been forced ...

Document Size:	5024
Author:	Chris Doss
Date:	Thu Apr 8 20:00:29 PDT 2010

167 [lbo-talk] US Civil War (was Platypus etc) -- rank: 773

Joseph Catron wrote: > If you're claiming that the Union's decision-making class was motivated to > go to war by abolitionism, you really are going to have to put some kind of > proof on the table. > Then why did the South secede? It was all in their heads?..... Some passages ...

Document Size:	12377
Author:	SA
Date:	Thu Apr 8 18:51:09 PDT 2010

168 [lbo-talk] US Civil War (was Platypus etc) -- rank: 773

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 6:28 PM, James Heartfield < Heartfield at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: Really? I think you have more faith in the US army's ability to improve > people's lives than I have. > But aren't you the one claiming that the US army pretty much ...

Document Size:	6133
Author:	Joseph Catron
Date:	Thu Apr 8 18:02:17 PDT 2010

169 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

Chris C. writes: 'James Heartfield wrote about the problem of the "mirror image" of anti-imperialism being the anti-Islam sentiments one finds in fears of Islamist terrorism. While the threat can and is exaggerated, it does exist... Does this mean that the U.S. invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was ...

Document Size:	6143
Author:	James Heartfield
Date:	Thu Apr 8 16:37:03 PDT 2010

170 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

This I'll have to vigorous contest later tonight. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Christopher Cutrone <ccutrone at speedsite.com>wrote: > > But that doesn't mean that the protest movement in Iran is reliably > "progressive," especially given its Khomeiniite Islamist default leadership > of Mousavi, Khatami, Rafsmanjani, et ...

Document Size:	5249
Author:	Bhaskar Sunkara
Date:	Thu Apr 8 16:28:39 PDT 2010

171 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

I think when Cutrone says "there is no real potential progressive 'anti-imperialist' politics that provides an actual emancipatory alternative to U.S. policy," he's probably thinking of the fact that there is really no progressive, democratic left to speak of in the places currently dealing with US aggression - Iraq ...

Document Size:	5942
Author:	Chris Maisano
Date:	Thu Apr 8 15:47:53 PDT 2010

172 [lbo-talk] US Civil War (was Platypus etc) -- rank: 773

Joseph writes: 'If we choose "reaction" vs. "progress" as our litmus test, we will find ourselves on the side of empire in Afghanistan and any number of other conflicts.' Really? I think you have more faith in the US army's ability to improve people's lives than I have. and ...

Document Size:	6400
Author:	James Heartfield
Date:	Thu Apr 8 15:28:56 PDT 2010

173 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

I'll go with "a course of action is good or bad according as the results are good or bad", but there are two problems with it: you don't know until it's all over and it's rare that results aren't awfully mixed. The North was right in ...

Document Size:	9545
Author:	Gail Brock
Date:	Thu Apr 8 13:03:46 PDT 2010

174 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

I don't mean to go out on a limb here, but I think the North's victory in the Civil War was a fine thing. But there is still a parallel of a sort. If you have some monochromatic, ahistorical opposition to all big bad capitalist governments, I don't ...

Document Size:	8298
Author:	Max Sawicky
Date:	Thu Apr 8 12:11:48 PDT 2010

175 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

At what point does "imperialism" become a semantic issue? If a region has different socioeconomic interests from the rest of a nation but is in a relatively powerless position within the national government but the national government enforces the interests of the different powerful region, how does this differ from external ...

Document Size:	6818
Author:	Gail Brock
Date:	Thu Apr 8 11:29:52 PDT 2010

176 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

So would you oppose the French Revolution, because it featured the triumph of the bourgeoisie, our sworn class enemy? Even take a "not a Civil War," but a classic case of imperialist aggression viewpoint: This argument doesn't make sense, because 2010 isn't 1865. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at ...

Document Size:	6945
Author:	Bhaskar Sunkara
Date:	Thu Apr 8 11:29:19 PDT 2010

177 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

Doug Henwood wrote: > Actually, on further thought, I'm not sure I have some "principled" > opposition to imperialism, in some rigid, a priori sense. It does seem > to be an empirical fact, however, that every U.S. military > intervention has been evil. That's just what I think too. With the ...

Document Size:	5085
Author:	SA
Date:	Thu Apr 8 11:26:21 PDT 2010

178 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

Doug Henwood wrote: > On Apr 8, 2010, at 1:10 PM, SA wrote: > >> But the point is that for the majority of the South's population, it >> wasn't one country. It was one group of states attacking another >> group of states. It was only called a Civil War in the ...

Document Size:	6106
Author:	SA
Date:	Thu Apr 8 11:16:32 PDT 2010

179 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

Actually, on further thought, I'm not sure I have some "principled" opposition to imperialism, in some rigid, a priori sense. It does seem to be an empirical fact, however, that every U.S. military intervention has been evil. Doug

Document Size:	4929
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Thu Apr 8 11:10:24 PDT 2010

180 [lbo-talk] Platypus: what we are, what we do, and why -- rank: 773

Doug Henwood wrote: > > On Apr 8, 2010, at 1:10 PM, SA wrote: > > > But the point is that for the majority of the South's population, it > > wasn't one country. It was one group of states attacking another > > group of states. It was only called a Civil War in the ...

Document Size:	5985
Author:	Carrol Cox
Date:	Thu Apr 8 10:55:16 PDT 2010