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991 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Ken, If you are sincerely interested in pursuing this Singer topic, I would recommend that you subscribe to the bioethics list: Bioethics · To facilitate the debate of the implication of bioethical issues for disabled people, marginalized groups and society at large It is on yahoogroups at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bioethics Ask some of your questions there. Check out the archives. Marta Ken Hanly wrote: > > Comments are after sections: > snip

Document Size:	5064
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Wed Aug 8 21:15:48 PDT 2001

992 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Who the fuck is Peter Singer to tell me anything? That is what I mean. I am signing off on this thread because it is really taking up productive time. Those of us with energy limitations must spend it wisely. Marta Ken Hanly wrote: > > Do you really mean to assert that it is preposterous arrogance for Singer to > assert that life is not something to which all beings have an equal right?i

Document Size:	4920
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Wed Aug 8 17:46:16 PDT 2001

993 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: > > The Thalidomide Victims Association of Canada (TVAC) is an > organization representing approximately 125 Canadians born disabled > as a consequence of the drug Thalidomide. TVAC provides non-monetary > programs and services, education, and advocacy for its members. > Members of the Association call themselves "Thalidomiders". > I don't think Gregor has any control over what an organization like this obviously run by medical/charity type ...

Document Size:	12409
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Wed Aug 8 17:28:40 PDT 2001

994 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Correction -- that should be 1994. Marta Russell wrote: > > > What I have noticed from the left is an over bearing need to feel pity > and put us out of our "misery" -- but not much effort to eliminate > barriers or accept us as equals. See Jim Charton's piece "The > Disability Rights Movement" in Monthly Review, July-August 1984. >

Document Size:	4938
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Wed Aug 8 13:59:19 PDT 2001

995 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Chuck Grimes wrote: > ______ > > The key problem is that pre-natal screening, a medical application of > biology, was only developed that is socially constructed to predict > the appearance of Abby Normal then get rid of her. (Remember, Young > Dr. Frankenstein?). > Yep I know the primary doctor who developed the technique. He lives near here and the intent was to detect "abnormal" fetus. Search and destroy. > In other words, law and medicine have already soci ...

Document Size:	6844
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Wed Aug 8 13:43:42 PDT 2001

996 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

You are hopeless Kelly - Jim characterized my objections to selective abortion, which is eugenic abortion, as being trivial. Obviously I don't think that is trivial. Then you make a leap over to your same old line. You really just want to pick a fight over some non real thing you have concocted in your brain. If this is any indication of communication, the human race is doomed. Marta kelley wrote: > > this, of course, doesn't address the fact that marta thinks that many > abortions are ...

Document Size:	7126
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Wed Aug 8 13:12:12 PDT 2001

997 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Gordon Fitch wrote: > > Jim Farmelant: > > ... > > And I remain puzzled how Marta can still regard > > herself to be pro-choice in regards to abortion, > > since she apparently thinks that many if not most > > abortions are done for trivial or otherwise morally > > and politically unacceptable reasons. And Nat Hentoff > > as I recall does call himself "pro-life" on the abortion > > issue. > > She probably distinguishes betwee ...

Document Size:	5417
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Wed Aug 8 10:44:25 PDT 2001

998 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: > > >Eliminating impairment does nothing for our liberation. > > I agree. Only a social movement against the oppression of the > disabled, in the context of a socialist movement, can bring about the > kind of liberation we need to work for. > > By the same token, eliminating some impairments, via prevention or > treatment, in itself does nothing to make the oppression of the > disabled worse than it is. Impairment is one thing; disableme ...

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Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Wed Aug 8 10:37:04 PDT 2001

999 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

My response here is to both Jim and Yoshie Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: > > However, according to the social model of disability that you > advocate, it is not biological qualities of fetuses but social > relations that disable individuals (temporarily or permanently or > progressively), so it follows that it is impossible to "wipe out" the > disabled through selective abortion without also abolishing disabling > social relations. Even the healthiest who can best appro ...

Document Size:	9101
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Tue Aug 7 21:20:20 PDT 2001

1000 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

ravi narayan wrote: > > "I have always supported a womans right to choose, but that gets harder > > and harder to do, the deeper one explores what is really happening. It > > is in my own enlightened self interest to reject what can potentially > > kill me." > > --Marta Russell > > http://nuance.dhs.org/lbo-talk/9811/1029.html > > > > i do not understand this. how is it meaningful to talk about self > interest before there is a self? o ...

Document Size:	9059
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Tue Aug 7 10:40:24 PDT 2001

1001 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

kelley wrote: > Marta > "I have always supported a womans right to choose, but that gets harder and > harder to do, the deeper one explores what is really happening. It is in my > own enlightened self interest to reject what can potentially kill me." > --Marta Russell > http://nuance.dhs.org/lbo-talk/9811/1029.html And after this post I have stated on several occasions, including to you directly just a week or so ago: Kelley wrote: > abridging abortion rights becau ...

Document Size:	11620
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Tue Aug 7 10:03:07 PDT 2001

1002 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Ken Hanly wrote: > Where on earth do you get the idea that > Singer ever held that non-persons do not feel pain? I would have to go dig deep for that one. I cannot remember. I will accept your explanation of his position on pain. > > Ken: What makes you think he no longer considers disability discrimination? > He does. Singer: > > It doesn't make any difference to the inherent right to life of the being, > no. But it does make a difference in that if the child is born w ...

Document Size:	10598
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Mon Aug 6 19:25:14 PDT 2001

1003 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Ken Hanly wrote: > > He no longer holds the 28 day position. From a recent interview: > > Most proponents of the right to die would agree with your ideas about > euthanasia. But you lose them when you suggest that it's OK to kill a baby > before it's 28 days old, because until that time, it is not self-aware and > "doesn't have the same right to life as others." > singer: > I wrote that in 1995. I have changed my position. Now I believe you should > look a ...

Document Size:	8481
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Mon Aug 6 14:54:38 PDT 2001

1004 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

kwalker2 at gte.net wrote: > > all reasons for aborting are socially constituted. your argument, however, > IS used by the right all the time. where you are outraged that a couple > would abort a down syndrome baby, etc., they are outraged that a couple > would abort any baby. This is not the same at all. I am not morally outraged. The right comes from a position of morality. My position is the social injustice of it all. That is not the same at all though I can tell from your ...

Document Size:	5845
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Mon Aug 6 14:10:11 PDT 2001

1005 Beeson & Singer/ prenatal diagnosis -- rank: 1000

Luke Weiger wrote: > > Well and good, although that piques my curiousity as to why you posted the > link in the first place. > > -- Luke Because the issue came up in a previous thread -- the Beeson/Singer post was really meant for those who have followed this discussion for past three years or however long some of us have been watching these issues. It was not meant to take up more posts going over issues we have already discussed. I believe that it is list etiquette to refer pe ...

Document Size:	5161
Author:	Marta Russell
Date:	Mon Aug 6 13:57:23 PDT 2001