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991 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 2:23 PM, Eric Beck wrote: > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote: >> So my friend at the UFCW thought that turning Walmart into the Flint of 2011, he thought it was an interesting idea, but feared it might pit workers against customers. Imagine, thinking about that! >> >> Doug > > Well, as Jodi Dean reminds us, there is no politics unless there are > lines of conflict. Are you serious? The ideal would ...

Document Size:	5515
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 11:37:08 PDT 2011

992 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Eric Beck wrote: > I especially appreciate that they instinctively know what animates and > appeals to those dismal, non-class-conscious, > incapable-of-politics-let-along-solidarity 40%, none of whom are > occupying sites around the world or are present on this very list. > Nope, nothing to see here. Move along. Ah, so clearly you do know all. I defer to your superior wisdom. You've already demonstrated it because you think a jobs program is bullshit. ...

Document Size:	5318
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 11:26:27 PDT 2011

993 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Michael Smith wrote: > It's always a pleasure to watch the mighty intellects > of lbo-talk sort out the bad ideas from the good ones > on the most impeccable a priori principles. A well-oiled > machine, a thing of beauty, its concatenated subjunctives > laying future contingencies relentlessly bare to the eye > of reason. It's almost as much fun watching the visionaries indulge their fantasies of revolutionary militance from on high.

Document Size:	5318
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 11:18:05 PDT 2011

994 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

So my friend at the UFCW thought that turning Walmart into the Flint of 2011, he thought it was an interesting idea, but feared it might pit workers against customers. Imagine, thinking about that! Doug

Document Size:	4944
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 11:16:13 PDT 2011

995 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Dennis Claxton wrote: > At 09:18 AM 10/28/2011, Carrol Cox wrote: > > >> Their _first_ consideration of course is how they mobilize enough people to carry out the action. > > > So during this initial process if someone questions the action itself you tell them to fuck off? He only reserves that treatment for people he's known for years. As my first mother-in-law used to tell her kids when they were young & bickering: "Could you please ...

Document Size:	5399
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 10:53:32 PDT 2011

996 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 1:36 PM, SA wrote: > Shhh, you're not allowed to say that here. Only people who actually occupy a Walmart are allowed to decide whether occupying a Walmart is a bad idea. Or something like that. Truth clarifies itself in the heat of the moment. You know, it'll seem really right, when it's really right, you know, man? Now if workers wanted to sit down in a Walmart as part of an organizing drive, that could make a lot of sense. I should ask my friend who works for the UFCW w ...

Document Size:	5318
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 10:52:35 PDT 2011

997 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 1:27 PM, 123hop at comcast.net wrote: > Call me stupid, but I don't understand why occupying Walmart would be a good thing to do. > > It seems the overall effect would be to further humiliate the people who have to shop there. Why do that? Stop asking sensible questions. You're interfering with a Developing Vision. Doug

Document Size:	5221
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 10:36:52 PDT 2011

998 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: > On 10/28/2011 10:10 AM, Max Sawicky wrote: >> Don't forget about the workers. > > This, like Doug's question, is "academic" in the bad sense. It considers a suggestion in abstraction from the actual process by which that suggestion would become actual practice. I could swear that several people here suggested it. And it's bonkers.

Document Size:	5208
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 09:51:00 PDT 2011

999 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 12:18 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: > > How would the bottom 40% of the income distribution, Walmart's core customer base, feel about this? > > This is NOT the way one goes about considering a tactical suggestion. You are looking at the "final product" and leaving out everything that would come in between. So your question is, at this point, a quibble, a provocation. You've got to be fucking kidding. There's only so much time in life and pissing off the rural wo ...

Document Size:	5476
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 09:23:58 PDT 2011

1000 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 12:01 PM, Dennis Claxton wrote: > Why not do that at places where the 1% hang out? Like the opera. I know there are opera fans here, but I'm guessing most of you sit in the cheap seats and don't go on opening night. Too many good people go to the opera. Why not the sort of charity events that Bill Cunningham chronicles in the NYT every Sunday? Or David Columbia's New York Social Diary. Same crowd. As Ian Bone said, get up close, find out just how ugly they are!

Document Size:	5277
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 09:07:37 PDT 2011

1001 [lbo-talk] More Low Life -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 11:56 AM, Max Sawicky wrote: > Quoth Henry Clapp, described as 'The King of Bohemia' in old (circa 1865) > New York City: > > "As there appear to be no lady contributors to *The Nation*, it has been > suggested that for this and other reasons its name be changed to the * > Stag-Nation*." Plus ca change...

Document Size:	4929
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 09:03:45 PDT 2011

1002 [lbo-talk] Henwood/Vitale -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 11:34 AM, Michael Smith wrote: > Doug, is this interview online anywhere yet? I don't > see it in your podcast or on the KPFA site. > > Better yet would be a transcript, of course.... It's being broadcast tomorrow morning at 10 PDT on KPFA, 94.1 or kpfa.org. It'll be posted to my radio archive this evening. No transcript, alas. Those are a lot of work.

Document Size:	4910
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 08:39:39 PDT 2011

1003 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Michael Smith wrote: > Doug's implicit line of argument here, I think, > falls into the fear-of-backlash category, which > is hardly ever, if ever, a sound strategic > consideration. > > OWS is quite unusual in having widespread public > support, which is wonderful but atypical. > More usually, any time you have a march or a sit-in > you piss a lot of people off. What inferences > do we draw? I wouldn't want to encourage a backlash amon ...

Document Size:	5803
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 08:22:08 PDT 2011

1004 [lbo-talk] occupation and situationists was Re: enemy's turf -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 10:31 AM, Michael Smith wrote: > Lots and lots of good stuff in this last from scb, but the > occupy-Walmart idea is really especially fine. Walmart has > to be open to do business; but if it's open anybpdy can walk > in. Just mill around in the aisles, block traffic, accumulate > a cartload of cheap shabby krotz, wait patiently in the checkout > line, then abandon it at the register. What are they going to > do? Shut the store? You win either way. How wo ...

Document Size:	5452
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 07:41:55 PDT 2011

1005 [lbo-talk] Tuesday evening report from OWS -- rank: 1000

On Oct 28, 2011, at 1:27 AM, Jordan Carroll wrote: > Just a few more anti-academic cliches left! So, Jodi Dean is an ivory tower > elitist pinko who should be doing real work in the real world, or at least > teaching the classics, but instead she's into that French theory. This is > all particularly troublesome because the Chinese are diligently studying > math and science while our students take classes on the Simpsons, > pornography, the Koran, and identity politics. It just ...

Document Size:	5563
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 28 07:24:03 PDT 2011