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1336 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:03 PM, Eric Beck wrote: > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote: > >> It's hard not to conclude that the real answer is "because it feels good," but no one wants to say that out loud. > > Your ability to psychoanalyze from 3,000 miles is amazing. Actually, Michael Smith is not 10 miles away. But what I'm mostly remarking on is the inability of any proponents to explain just what breaking windows accompl ...

Document Size:	5818
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 09:17:23 PST 2011

1337 [lbo-talk] More on "Barney Frank did it" ... -- rank: 1000

On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Jordan Hayes wrote: > The first thing to point out is that the both the subprime mortgage > boom and the subsequent crash are very much concentrated in the > private market, especially the private label securitization channel > (PLS) market. The GSEs were not behind them. That whole fly-by-night > lending boom, slicing and dicing mortgage bonds, derivatives and CDOs, > and all the other shadiness of the 2000s mortgage market was a Wall > Street ...

Document Size:	9834
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 08:34:32 PST 2011

1338 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Joseph Catron wrote: > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote: > > But I asked you what smashing windows in this context, or even the context >> of Seattle 1999, accomplished. You said that was a good question, and then >> didn't really answer it. It would be nice to hear an answer from the >> window-smashing crowd, even if it's just a quotation of Nick Lowe. >> > > Well, go and ask them ...

Document Size:	5933
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 08:22:43 PST 2011

1339 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 7, 2011, at 10:44 AM, Joseph Catron wrote: > Sometimes, when one is dealing with the kinds of comments from the peanut > gallery that fill this thread, witticisms are the only appropriate > response. The proper rejoinder to an ill-informed opinion is neither > silence nor another ill-informed opinion. That's funny, if not a witticism. But I asked you what smashing windows in this context, or even the context of Seattle 1999, accomplished. You said that was a good question, and ...

Document Size:	5212
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 07:54:25 PST 2011

1340 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 7, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Michael Smith wrote: > But I wasn't trying to explain *myself*, or > indeed to *explain* anything. So you weren't trying to explain the appeal of window smashing? What were you trying to do then? Just fire off some witticisms? Doug

Document Size:	4812
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 07:33:35 PST 2011

1341 [lbo-talk] Angela Davis on violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:56 AM, Dennis Claxton quoted Angela Davis: > I mean, that s why when someone asks me about violence, I just I just find it incredible, because what it means is that the person who s asking that question has absolutely no idea what black people have gone through, what black people have experienced in this country, since the time the first black person was kidnapped from the shores of Africa. That's all true, but it doesn't address the question of whether the good guys sh ...

Document Size:	5113
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 07:18:35 PST 2011

1342 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:41 AM, Charles Turner wrote: > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Michael Smith <mjs at smithbowen.net> wrote: > >> Why do I never meet them? Or perhaps I'm >> just not rational *enough*, & Doug's got 'em all sewn up. > > Switching from a blog to doing radio interviews would help... > > ;-) I want more groupies!

Document Size:	5048
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 06:55:56 PST 2011

1343 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 7, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Carrol Cox wrote: > But as nonpartiipants in the Oakland Occupation we should NOT be discussing > fragments of that Occupation You always say things like this, and they seem very wrong to me. People who are not direct participants in something shouldn't comment on it? We have nothing to learn from other people's actions? Why study history? Sociology? Why read a newspaper? Doug

Document Size:	4957
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 06:55:29 PST 2011

1344 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 6, 2011, at 11:30 PM, Michael Smith wrote: > On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:24:17 -0500 > Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote: > >> It just makes you feel righteous. > > As always, Doug, I'm greatly indebted to you > for explaining me to myself. I did a better job than you did.

Document Size:	4981
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Mon Nov 7 06:52:56 PST 2011

1345 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 6, 2011, at 9:44 PM, Michael Smith wrote: > On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:41:17 -0500 > Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote: > >> I'm not opposed to violence, but ... >> No one's actually explained how it might >> help at this stage > > Questions like this give me serious brain-freeze. > > No one has 'explained' how X might 'help' Y? > How on earth is anybody supposed to do that? > And if we had to wait for these persuasive > explanatio ...

Document Size:	5821
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Sun Nov 6 20:24:17 PST 2011

1346 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 6, 2011, at 9:11 PM, // ravi wrote: > Usually I am with Michael, Carrol and them on most debates. Must say it is interesting to be on the other side on this one at least emotionally, it is nice to actually agree with someone as agreeable as Doug. Awww, thanks!

Document Size:	4806
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Sun Nov 6 18:17:19 PST 2011

1347 [lbo-talk] ISO? -- rank: 1000

On Nov 6, 2011, at 6:14 PM, Lenin's Tomb wrote: > There may be a history of cultism in the fragments of the far left but, in the dealings I have had with the ISO, I have never encountered anything that could be called cult-like behaviour. So what's your take on the SWP-ISO divorce? Doug

Document Size:	4626
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Sun Nov 6 16:44:12 PST 2011

1348 [lbo-talk] ISO? -- rank: 1000

> This message seems to have been bounced earlier, so I'll try again in case > it was my email program and not a matter of moderation: No moderation. Everyone's on moderation until I approve the first post. After that, they fly freely, unless they bounce for length. > I met some International Socialist Organization folks at the local Occupy > and I plan on going to one of their meetings later in the month. They seem > like nice people and I haven't read anything too objectionable ...

Document Size:	5246
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Sun Nov 6 16:43:55 PST 2011

1349 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 6, 2011, at 6:29 PM, Michael Smith wrote: > On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:15:46 +0000 (UTC) > 123hop at comcast.net wrote: > >> Fuck violence. This is clearly a testasterone laden discussion. > > Joanna, you know I'm your biggest fan, but this is > off the mark. I can't think of any social > transformation that's been without violence. And it's > not a male monopoly. I'm not opposed to violence, but it sure looks like some people are impatient for it to start. No one ...

Document Size:	5288
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Sun Nov 6 16:41:17 PST 2011

1350 [lbo-talk] On vandalism and violence -- rank: 1000

On Nov 6, 2011, at 5:38 PM, Julio Huato wrote: > I agree. The success of OWS is likely to invite opposition from the > powers that be, including those powers that stem from our own > internalization of the status quo. The status quo has no problem with violence in general. I believe that someone even said that it's as American as apple pie. I know that's not what you mean, but when you talk about internalizing the status quo, it's good to remember that we've internalized many aspects o ...

Document Size:	5065
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Sun Nov 6 14:44:38 PST 2011