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1051 [lbo-talk] NYM: The Organizers vs. the Organized in Zuccotti Park -- rank: 1000

On Oct 21, 2011, at 11:07 PM, SA wrote: > this amounted to a Jacobinic betrayal. Bhaskar, Seth - how do you plead? Doug

Document Size:	4946
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Sat Oct 22 06:32:54 PDT 2011

1052 [lbo-talk] those demands? forget about 'em! -- rank: 1000

http://occupywallst.org/article/so-called-demands-working-group/ Demands Working Group Posted Oct. 21, 2011, 3:01 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt A group claiming to be affiliated with the General Assembly of Liberty Square and #ows has been speaking to the media on behalf of our movement. This group is not empowered by the NYC General Assembly. This group is not open-source and does not act by consensus. This group only represents themselves. While we encourage the participation of autonomous working ...

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Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 19:54:53 PDT 2011

1053 [lbo-talk] Murray Bookchin on autonomy, consensus, democracy -- rank: 1000

I think this is pretty great stuff. Bookchin really develops the problem I've had with the use of "autonomy" by the OWS anarchists, and underscores the coercion and opacity involved in "consensus": http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bookchin/cmmnl2.mcw.html?type=6

Document Size:	5145
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 18:06:28 PDT 2011

1054 [lbo-talk] Jacobin debate up -- rank: 1000

On Oct 21, 2011, at 4:26 PM, wrobert at uci.edu wrote: > I think that there has been a slight misunderstanding about Lennard's > argument here. I don't think she was making a global claim, rather > she was making a claim that the state and its repressive apparatuses > aren't the only danger to the movement, instead sets of normative > practices that are exemplified in structures such as non-profits and > the trade union bureaucracy, what we might call a variety of > ide ...

Document Size:	5629
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 13:50:04 PDT 2011

1055 [lbo-talk] The "Liberty Square Blueprint" -- rank: 1000

On Oct 21, 2011, at 3:29 PM, shag carpet bomb wrote: > Is the Shawn Redden quoted in the article and also in the > Demands Working group the same guy who was (still is?) on Marxmail? I believe Lou booted him for 9/11 nuttery. Doug

Document Size:	4903
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 12:50:39 PDT 2011

1056 [lbo-talk] Jacobin debate up -- rank: 1000

On Oct 21, 2011, at 1:46 PM, Eric Beck wrote: > That would be Alphonse van Worden, aka Le Colonel Chabert, a currency > trader whose only function in life, besides profiting off others' > misery, is to point out how not-militant-enough all other Marxists > are. I hadn't seen her around in awhile. I relish her return like I > would a herpes flareup. Is this for real, or some sock puppet?

Document Size:	4901
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 10:58:32 PDT 2011

1057 [lbo-talk] The "Liberty Square Blueprint" -- rank: 1000

On Oct 21, 2011, at 1:26 PM, Chuck Grimes wrote: > Looking around again: > > Q: Hi, last night I found out that we have a Demands group. I ve been meaning to say this, that I think the word demands is for terrorist groups. We should be working on solutions, as in the Open Source group, Visions & Goals, and in this group. I d love to propose that we stop making demands. It has failed us the last 100 years. > > Point of Information: Very early on, this General Assembly agreed ...

Document Size:	5421
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 10:43:19 PDT 2011

1058 [lbo-talk] The "Liberty Square Blueprint" -- rank: 1000

On Oct 21, 2011, at 10:49 AM, Chris Maisano wrote: > So the anarchist types who have been running the show behind the scenes and actively disrupting the meetings of the working group crafting the jobs for all demand (so much for leaderlessness and self-organization) have finally unveiled their Liberty Square Blueprint - and it is utter rubbish. Not a single word about the tens of millions of unemployed and underemployed, the tens of millions without health insurance, and the tens of millions ...

Document Size:	7975
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 08:21:15 PDT 2011

1059 [lbo-talk] Jacobin debate up -- rank: 1000

On Oct 20, 2011, at 10:57 PM, SA wrote: > Thanks. Most of the commenters on that page don't seem to think so. Holy shit. I almost never read web comments, and now I'm reminded why: > Portnoy the moderator is using all the standard tactics of a customs house tiny Napoleon with stamping powers to assert his dominance and muzzle challenge

Document Size:	4828
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 07:33:26 PDT 2011

1060 [lbo-talk] "The bailout returned a profit for the US taxpayer!" -- rank: 1000

On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Adam Proctor wrote: > The first question I would ask is: which bailout? The second thing I would > say is, "Sir/Ma'am, there is no way to get back a sum total which is MORE > THAN US GDP with interest. It's economically and fundamentally impossible. > Read more here from my friend "Petrino diLeo": > http://socialistworker.org/2011/09/07/the-16-trillion-bailout This is some > of the best analysis around on the bailouts. I'm getting ...

Document Size:	6450
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Fri Oct 21 07:18:10 PDT 2011

1061 [lbo-talk] Jacobin debate up -- rank: 1000

On Oct 20, 2011, at 8:53 PM, dndlllio at aol.com wrote: > The strategic goal is to live well. Working is a tactic! Got any alternatives right now? The bourgeoisie hates full employment. For the definitive explanation, see Kalecki. They hate it because it increases the confidence and bargaining power fo the working class and enables people to think about better alternatives. If they don't have a pot to piss in, they're going to be obsesses with survival. Why is that so hard to understand? Doug

Document Size:	5029
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Thu Oct 20 18:03:23 PDT 2011

1062 [lbo-talk] Jacobin debate up -- rank: 1000

On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:11 PM, Mike Beggs wrote: > 'Capitalism works because you do.' The problem here is a mistaken > treatment of our work as the independent variable. 'We work', > therefore capitalism works. But why do we work? Because we have coded > positive feelings in our head about capitalism and want to make it > work? So if only we could have some transformative experience that > changes our feelings on the matter we would realise how foolish were > we to work, and w ...

Document Size:	5546
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Thu Oct 20 17:35:52 PDT 2011

1063 [lbo-talk] OWS Demands working group: jobs for all! -- rank: 1000

On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:23 PM, Mike Beggs wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 5:46 AM, Eric Beck <ersatzdog at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Okay, let me ask explicitly: what's wrong with being against full >> employment as a demand? Jobs (little "j") fucking suck and cause as >> much misery, stress, and death as lack of jobs. Why demand that? Talk >> about desiring your own repression. > > I don't see what's so difficult about it. No shit. I don't think E ...

Document Size:	5689
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Thu Oct 20 17:13:57 PDT 2011

1064 [lbo-talk] OWS Demands working group: jobs for all! -- rank: 1000

On Oct 20, 2011, at 5:51 PM, Joseph Catron wrote: > That's one way to look at it. Another is, if you aren't going to get the > minimal acceptable demands (in this case, full employment in the public > sector, etc., etc.) for the foreseeable future, why not reach for the sky? What would reaching for the sky be? Me, I'm looking for demands that could attract a significant amount of support and have a decent chance of changing the way people talk and view the world. So, jobs, health care, ...

Document Size:	5439
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Thu Oct 20 15:03:00 PDT 2011

1065 [lbo-talk] OWS Demands working group: jobs for all! -- rank: 1000

On Oct 20, 2011, at 5:32 PM, leninstombblog at googlemail.com wrote: > Greece is a weak link in the capitalist chain. It is not wise to see it as a synecdoche for the system as a whole. Indeed, part of Greece's crisis is the overwhelming class power of the European bourgeoisie which is able to force these barbaric 'austerity' measures on the country. The capitalist system is in a period of long-term crisis, but it is not collapsing and will not unless a sufficient array of social forces are ...

Document Size:	6089
Author:	Doug Henwood
Date:	Thu Oct 20 14:48:48 PDT 2011