LBO Talk

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Michael Smith — Thu, 21 May 2015 02:50:38 GMT

On 5/20/15 9:17 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: > >> On May 20, 2015, at 5:56 PM, Michael Smith wrote: >> >> I wonder what the income stream from a medallion is, and what proportion >> of the sale price it accounts for. I have no idea what the answer might >> be, and no idea where to find out. > > Excellent questions. I wonder if the Taxi Workers union knows. I tried to get a comment out of them about Uber for my Nation piece but they never got back to me. > The paper that Sean posted a link to said that in 1986 the average profit per shift -- accruing, presumably, to the medallion owner -- was $57 per shift. If a shift is eight hours and there are three of them a day, that's a cool $62,000 and change a year, at a time when the medallion only cost around $100,000. Not a bad return on the investment. Even if the profit per shift hadn't increased at all by 2008, when the price was $450,000, the annual return on investment would still be almost 14%. Still not bad, and it d

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Joseph Catron — Thu, 21 May 2015 02:24:04 GMT

I've never crunched any numbers, but having worked with the union here, and also having a mother who drives in a freer market, that's my sense. Some green- and yellow-cab operators actually earn a living wage in this city. It's doubtful in a license-on-demand system. On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 9:18 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: You could argue that restricting the number of medallions could be good for > drivers, by limiting competition. What sucks is that the parasite owners > get most of the monopoly profits. -- "Hige sceal �e heardra, heorte �e cenre, mod sceal �e mare, �e ure m�gen lytla�."

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Michael Smith — Thu, 21 May 2015 02:17:09 GMT

On 5/20/15 9:18 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: > You could argue that restricting the number of medallions could be good for drivers, by limiting competition. What sucks is that the parasite owners get most of the monopoly profits. Yes. In fact, for any number of reasons, limiting the number of licenses (not necessarily medallions) might make good policy sense. But for example, a license might have a fixed lifetime -- a year, five years, whatever -- and the city could auction off the new ones as they were issued, thus capturing the capital value of the asset. The only noteworthy effect of the existing system is to create a particularly odious rentier/speculator class. Everybody should meet a medallion broker at least once. -- A conquering race, in the place of that conquest, is rarely amiable; the conquerors pay less obviously than the conquered, but perhaps in time they pay even more heavily, in the loss of the humane qualities.

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Michael Smith — Thu, 21 May 2015 02:08:15 GMT

On 5/20/15 9:46 PM, Sean Andrews wrote: > To Michael's point: > > http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=parkplace Interesting. His stats only go up to 2008. Wonder what happened after that? -- A conquering race, in the place of that conquest, is rarely amiable; the conquerors pay less obviously than the conquered, but perhaps in time they pay even more heavily, in the loss of the humane qualities.

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Sean Andrews — Thu, 21 May 2015 01:46:36 GMT

To Michael's point: http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=parkplace On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 8:22 PM Michael Smith wrote: > The monopoly is one thing, the medallion system is another. Personally I > have no problem with the monopoly, or fixed pricing, though I don't feel > particularly dogmatic about it. But the medallion system creates a new > kind of property which can be speculated in and on which a rent can be > collected. Who needs that? > > > On 5/20/15 9:05 PM, Jim Farmelant wrote: > > > > > > It seems that everybody here is on the same page with Milton Friedman > who back in 1962 in his book, Capitalism and Freedom, among other things, > attacked the institution of taxi medallions as an an example of unjustified > government-created monopoly. > > > > Jim Farmelant > > http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant > > http://www.foxymath.com > > Learn or Review Basic Math > > > > > > ---------- Original Message ---------- >

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Michael Smith — Thu, 21 May 2015 01:19:52 GMT

The monopoly is one thing, the medallion system is another. Personally I have no problem with the monopoly, or fixed pricing, though I don't feel particularly dogmatic about it. But the medallion system creates a new kind of property which can be speculated in and on which a rent can be collected. Who needs that? On 5/20/15 9:05 PM, Jim Farmelant wrote: > > > It seems that everybody here is on the same page with Milton Friedman who back in 1962 in his book, Capitalism and Freedom, among other things, attacked the institution of taxi medallions as an an example of unjustified government-created monopoly. > > Jim Farmelant > http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant > http://www.foxymath.com > Learn or Review Basic Math > > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: Shane Mage > To: lbo-talk > Cc: Progressive Economics > Subject: [lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions > Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 14:27:47 -040

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Doug Henwood — Thu, 21 May 2015 01:18:51 GMT

> On May 20, 2015, at 9:05 PM, Jim Farmelant wrote: > > It seems that everybody here is on the same page with Milton Friedman who back in 1962 in his book, Capitalism and Freedom, among other things, attacked the institution of taxi medallions as an an example of unjustified government-created monopoly. You could argue that restricting the number of medallions could be good for drivers, by limiting competition. What sucks is that the parasite owners get most of the monopoly profits.

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Doug Henwood — Thu, 21 May 2015 01:17:49 GMT

> On May 20, 2015, at 5:56 PM, Michael Smith wrote: > > I wonder what the income stream from a medallion is, and what proportion > of the sale price it accounts for. I have no idea what the answer might > be, and no idea where to find out. Excellent questions. I wonder if the Taxi Workers union knows. I tried to get a comment out of them about Uber for my Nation piece but they never got back to me.

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Jim Farmelant — Thu, 21 May 2015 01:05:38 GMT

It seems that everybody here is on the same page with Milton Friedman who back in 1962 in his book, Capitalism and Freedom, among other things, attacked the institution of taxi medallions as an an example of unjustified government-created monopoly. Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant http://www.foxymath.com Learn or Review Basic Math ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Shane Mage To: lbo-talk Cc: Progressive Economics Subject: [lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 14:27:47 -0400 There's been a lot of criticism of Uber and Lyft, many, I'm sure, based on real incidents. But them's the trees. The forest--which needs to be burned down completely--is the monopolization of urban vehicular transport services through restricted licensing and the sale of permits for participation in that monopolistic capitalist enterprise. License drivers, sure--for public safety

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Michael Smith — Wed, 20 May 2015 21:56:25 GMT

On Wed, May 20, 2015 3:49 pm, Doug Henwood wrote: > Yeah, but if the projected income stream is reduced, so to is the value of > the capitalized asset. It's a perfectly rational downgrading. I wonder what the income stream from a medallion is, and what proportion of the sale price it accounts for. I have no idea what the answer might be, and no idea where to find out. -- Michael Smith It is very easy for someone to be good at math; most of the time the kind of math that economists do would not impress a mathematician, but it is enough to impress people around them in the school of social sciences. -- Thomas Piketty

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Shane Mage — Wed, 20 May 2015 21:16:45 GMT

On May 20, 2015, at 5:05 PM, Jordan Hayes wrote: > > if a NYC medallion is "worth" $1M, shouldn't the city get it (or at least some of it) in the form of an ongoing tax or something, rather than the folks who buy and sit on them? And why should there be monopoly pricing for taxi services in the first place? Shane Mage "All things are an equal exchange for fire and fire for all things, as goods are for gold and gold for goods." Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr, 90

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Doug Henwood — Wed, 20 May 2015 21:16:31 GMT

> On May 20, 2015, at 5:05 PM, Jordan Hayes wrote: > > Anyway, I think this is just (one) general downside to privatization: if a NYC medallion is "worth" $1M, shouldn't the city get it (or at least some of it) in the form of an ongoing tax or something, rather than the folks who buy and sit on them? I don't think they get sat on, but the high price is one reason the drivers are so badly exploited, since it forces up the vehicle rent they have to pay to the owners.

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Jordan Hayes — Wed, 20 May 2015 21:05:32 GMT

Doug writes: >> Clearly this is a speculative asset, like real estate and Rembrandt. > > Yeah, but if the projected income stream is reduced, so to is the > value of the capitalized asset. It's a perfectly rational downgrading. I think Michael was remarking in general about the price, not the specific market action. Anyway, I think this is just (one) general downside to privatization: if a NYC medallion is "worth" $1M, shouldn't the city get it (or at least some of it) in the form of an ongoing tax or something, rather than the folks who buy and sit on them? /jordan

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Doug Henwood — Wed, 20 May 2015 20:49:29 GMT

> On May 20, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Michael Smith wrote: > > This is exactly right. Uber is a monstrosity, and Travis Dickhead or > whatever his name is exemplifies everything that is wrong, wrong, wrong > with Silicon Valley startup culture. But the medallion taxi racket is a > disgrace. NYT: "The average price of an individual New York taxi medallion > fell to $840,000 in November, down 20 percent from its peak of $1.05 > million in June 2013." > > Clearly this is a speculative asset, like real estate and Rembrandt. Yeah, but if the projected income stream is reduced, so to is the value of the capitalized asset. It's a perfectly rational downgrading.

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Michael Smith — Wed, 20 May 2015 20:02:37 GMT

On Wed, May 20, 2015 1:27 pm, Shane Mage wrote: > There's been a lot of criticism of Uber and Lyft, many, I'm sure, based on > real incidents. But them's the trees. The forest--which needs to be > burned down completely--is the monopolization of urban vehicular transport > services through restricted licensing and the sale of permits for > participation in that monopolistic capitalist enterprise. This is exactly right. Uber is a monstrosity, and Travis Dickhead or whatever his name is exemplifies everything that is wrong, wrong, wrong with Silicon Valley startup culture. But the medallion taxi racket is a disgrace. NYT: "The average price of an individual New York taxi medallion fell to $840,000 in November, down 20 percent from its peak of $1.05 million in June 2013." Clearly this is a speculative asset, like real estate and Rembrandt.

[lbo-talk] Kill The Medallions

Shane Mage — Wed, 20 May 2015 18:27:47 GMT

There's been a lot of criticism of Uber and Lyft, many, I'm sure, based on real incidents. But them's the trees. The forest--which needs to be burned down completely--is the monopolization of urban vehicular transport services through restricted licensing and the sale of permits for participation in that monopolistic capitalist enterprise. License drivers, sure--for public safety only--provided that the license is for an individual driveronly,. is free of charge, and is available to everyone who qualifies as a competent and responsible driver (which would surely lead to the formation of drivers' cooperatives easily able to outcompete the Ubers and Lyfts). http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/05/17/taxi-medallion-values-decline-uber-rideshare/27314735/

[lbo-talk] Aljazeera Arabic: Should We Kill All Alawites?

Carrol Cox — Mon, 11 May 2015 15:46:28 GMT

Thanks. I was not aware that the Subject line was a translation. And in general I've learned on this list that one-line posts (Or One-Line Zingers as I've labelled them in the past) are in general not worth paying attention to. My post was simply asking for a direct statement of some sort from Joe himself. Neither a naked link nor an off-hand metaphor constitutes and invitation t or motive for conversation. Carrol -----Original Message----- From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org] On Behalf Of Shane Mage Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 8:43 AM To: lbo-talk at lbo-talk.org Subject: Re: [lbo-talk] Aljazeera Arabic: Should We Kill All Alawites? On May 11, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Carrol Cox wrote: > > "I think I've given this family of companies my last interview for a while." Plus link not commented on. > > What family of companies, and why should anyone read the article you link to? "Al Jazeera" is a family of "autonomous" companies broadcasting in various

[lbo-talk] Aljazeera Arabic: Should We Kill All Alawites?

Shane Mage — Mon, 11 May 2015 13:43:20 GMT

On May 11, 2015, at 9:27 AM, Carrol Cox wrote: > > "I think I've given this family of companies my last interview for a while." Plus link not commented on. > > What family of companies, and why should anyone read the article you link to? "Al Jazeera" is a family of "autonomous" companies broadcasting in various languages--under the patriarchal supervision of the Emir of Qatar. (In the current Yemen crisis Al Jazeera America is functioning as the house organ for the Saudi-sponsored massacre of Yemeni people). The link is to an Arabic-language article. What Joe translated is more than enough, thank you. Shane Mage This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, kindling in measures and going out in measures." Herakleitos of Ephesos

[lbo-talk] Aljazeera Arabic: Should We Kill All Alawites?

Carrol Cox — Mon, 11 May 2015 13:27:19 GMT

"I think I've given this family of companies my last interview for a while." Plus link not commented on. What family of companies, and why should anyone read the article you link to? Carrol

[lbo-talk] Aljazeera Arabic: Should We Kill All Alawites?

Joseph Catron — Mon, 11 May 2015 02:40:48 GMT

I think I've given this family of companies my last interview for a while. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULtNYSUqYHw -- "Hige sceal �e heardra, heorte �e cenre, mod sceal �e mare, �e ure m�gen lytla�."

[lbo-talk] Michigan Democrat threatens to kill Iran diplomacy

Robert Naiman — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 20:18:52 GMT

You got people in Michigan? Let them know about this. On Preventing Iran War, Gary Peters is No Carl Levin http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/on-preventing-iran-war-ga_b_6251076.html === Robert Naiman Policy Director Just Foreign Policy www.justforeignpolicy.org naiman at justforeignpolicy.org (202) 448-2898 x1

[lbo-talk] Nobody Knows How Many Americans The Police Kill Each Year

Charles Brown — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 11:42:55 GMT

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-the-police-kill-each-year/ Frederick Scott protests the killing of Michael Brown on August 18, 2014, in Ferguson, Missouri. Scott Olson / Getty Images Ferguson 11:36 AM Aug 19, 2014 Nobody Knows How Many Americans The Police Kill Each Year By Reuben Fischer-Baum Earlier this month, a police officer shot and killed an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, in Ferguson, Missouri. The shooting and the response have reignited concerns about racial profiling, police brutality and police militarization. The incident has also drawn attention to a remarkable lack of knowledge about a seemingly basic fact: how often people are killed by the police. Some reporting has put forward one of the only figures available: the approximately 400 justifiable police homicides each year since 2008, according to the FBI s annual Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR). That data point has appeared with heavy caveats in a string of media reports, including i

[lbo-talk] [Pen-l] Now this is an interesting question: "Why did Israel target and kill Hebrew speakers in Gaza?"

Joseph Catron — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 21:50:14 GMT

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 5:00 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: You live over there and are better situated than any of us to establish > whether anyone other than Max Blumenthal, whom I greatly respect BTW, has > reported in the same vein? > Not that I'm aware of, no. But there's still a "fog of war" over many incidents. So much stuff happened, everywhere at once, that a lot of it hasn't received a great deal of attention. -- "Hige sceal �e heardra, heorte �e cenre, mod sceal �e mare, �e ure m�gen lytla�."

[lbo-talk] [Pen-l] Now this is an interesting question: "Why did Israel target and kill Hebrew speakers in Gaza?"

Marv Gandall — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 14:00:23 GMT

I m skeptical that this incident(s) was the premeditated execution of a new practice in Gaza ostensibly ordered by the Israeli high command. No doubt militants who know the language of the enemy make more effective combatants in close quarter fighting and on raids, and in that sense pose a greater threat to Israeli security. But this was a 54 year man. The accounts sound more like random acts perpetrated by angry, stressed and trigger happy troops in the field who will seize on any pretext to commit violence, including murder, against civilians. As well as in Gaza, many and perhaps more West Bank Palestinians speak Hebrew. Many have been shot, not for speaking Hebrew, but for throwing stones and other acts of resistance. You would think if there was evidence of such targeted linguisticide we would be seeing confirmation of the practice in media reports and from various Palestinian and Israeli human rights organizations. You live over there and are better situated than any of us to

[lbo-talk] Now this is an interesting question: "Why did Israel target and kill Hebrew speakers in Gaza?"

Joseph Catron — Sat, 11 Oct 2014 05:20:13 GMT

"According to several different eyewitnesses [Max Blumenthal] spoke to, offering corroborating accounts of different incidents, it seems that Israeli soldiers were executing a new practice during this latest Gaza war. As Max puts it: 'wanton targeting of Palestinian civilians who spoke Hebrew'." https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/inquiry/14582-why-did-israel-target-and-kill-hebrew-speakers-in-gaza -- "Hige sceal �e heardra, heorte �e cenre, mod sceal �e mare, �e ure m�gen lytla�."

[lbo-talk] "Let's Kill Them All"

Marta Russell — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:10:12 GMT

Thanks, and to let you know People for the AMerican Way is trying to get the guy, Erik Rush, removed from Fox but do those campaigns go very well? Too many that might agree with him? I sign petitions anyway whether I think they will be successful or not. Marta On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:13 AM, andie_nachgeborenen wrote: > Welcome back. A lot of the traffic has moved to Facebook. But the lboster list is still here. > > It's a remarkable commentary on the times when a call of, hmm, not exactly genocide. Religiocide? Can evoke only the tired response "outrageous," or when a comment like that wouldn't have cost the bigot his job. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:21 AM, 123hop at comcast.net wrote:

[lbo-talk] "Let's Kill Them All"

andie_nachgeborenen — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:14:41 GMT

Welcome back, Marta Sent from my iPad On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:21 AM, 123hop at comcast.net wrote: > Welcome back Marta. I"m afraid we've thinned out a bit....so you're especially welcomed back. > > Joanna > > ----- Original Message ----- > Hello everyone! > > I've rejoined the list so some may be glad and some may be sad - so be it. > >> From People for the American Way: "Frequent Fox News contributor Erik Rush got into a Twitter exchange shortly after yesterday s apparent bombing to declare of Muslims: Yes, they re evil. Let s kill them all. > > OK I know to be expected of Fox, still outrageous. > > Marta > ___________________________________ > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk > ___________________________________ > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk

[lbo-talk] "Let's Kill Them All"

andie_nachgeborenen — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:13:13 GMT

Welcome back. A lot of the traffic has moved to Facebook. But the lboster list is still here. It's a remarkable commentary on the times when a call of, hmm, not exactly genocide. Religiocide? Can evoke only the tired response "outrageous," or when a comment like that wouldn't have cost the bigot his job. Sent from my iPad On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:21 AM, 123hop at comcast.net wrote: > Welcome back Marta. I"m afraid we've thinned out a bit....so you're especially welcomed back. > > Joanna > > ----- Original Message ----- > Hello everyone! > > I've rejoined the list so some may be glad and some may be sad - so be it. > >> From People for the American Way: "Frequent Fox News contributor Erik Rush got into a Twitter exchange shortly after yesterday s apparent bombing to declare of Muslims: Yes, they re evil. Let s kill them all. > > OK I know to be expected of Fox, still outrageous. > > Marta > ___________________________________ > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk > ____

[lbo-talk] "Let's Kill Them All"

Marta Russell — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:31:04 GMT

Thanks Joanna. Thinned out or not comments here cannot be found anywhere else! Marta On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:21 AM, 123hop at comcast.net wrote: > Welcome back Marta. I"m afraid we've thinned out a bit....so you're especially welcomed back. > > Joanna > > ----- Original Message ----- > Hello everyone! > > I've rejoined the list so some may be glad and some may be sad - so be it. > >> From People for the American Way: "Frequent Fox News contributor Erik Rush got into a Twitter exchange shortly after yesterday s apparent bombing to declare of Muslims: Yes, they re evil. Let s kill them all. > > OK I know to be expected of Fox, still outrageous. > > Marta > ___________________________________ > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk > ___________________________________ > http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk

[lbo-talk] "Let's Kill Them All"

123hop at comcast.net — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:21:27 GMT

Welcome back Marta. I"m afraid we've thinned out a bit....so you're especially welcomed back. Joanna ----- Original Message ----- Hello everyone! I've rejoined the list so some may be glad and some may be sad - so be it. >From People for the American Way: "Frequent Fox News contributor Erik Rush got into a Twitter exchange shortly after yesterday s apparent bombing to declare of Muslims: Yes, they re evil. Let s kill them all. OK I know to be expected of Fox, still outrageous. Marta ___________________________________ http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/mailman/listinfo/lbo-talk

[lbo-talk] "Let's Kill Them All"

Marta Russell — Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:56:44 GMT

Hello everyone! I've rejoined the list so some may be glad and some may be sad - so be it. >From People for the American Way: "Frequent Fox News contributor Erik Rush got into a Twitter exchange shortly after yesterday s apparent bombing to declare of Muslims: Yes, they re evil. Let s kill them all. OK I know to be expected of Fox, still outrageous. Marta

[lbo-talk] Do not kill list...

123hop at comcast.net — Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:18:11 GMT

----- Forwarded Message ----- https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/create-do-not-kill-list/HwqFwRtG We petition the Obama Administration to: Create a Do Not Kill List The New York Times reports that President Obama has created an official 'kill list' that he uses to personally order the assassination of American citizens. Considering that the government already has a 'Do Not Call' list and a 'No Fly' list, we hereby request that the White House create a 'Do Not Kill' list in which American citizens can sign up to avoid being put on the president's 'kill list' and therefore avoid being executed without indictment, judge, jury, trial or due process of law. Created: May 30, 2012 Issues: Civil Rights and Liberties, Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement, Defense

[lbo-talk] India Factory Workers Revolt, Kill Company President - Forbes

// ravi — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:23:37 GMT

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2012/01/27/india-factory-workers-revolt-kill-company-president/

[lbo-talk] The Kill Team

Somebody Somebody — Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:31:12 GMT

Somebody: I'm sure we can trust these guys to protect the good people of Libya, though. There's no chance they'll be seen as just more haji savages, is there? Excerpt: "The two soldiers, Cpl. Jeremy Morlock and Pfc. Andrew Holmes, saw a young farmer who was working by himself among the spiky shoots. Off in the distance, a few other soldiers stood sentry. But the farmer was the only Afghan in sight. With no one around to witness, the timing was right. And just like that, they picked him for execution. He was a smooth-faced kid, about 15 years old. Not much younger than they were: Morlock was 21, Holmes was 19. His name, they would later learn, was Gul Mudin, a common name in Afghanistan. He was wearing a little cap and a Western-style green jacket. He held nothing in his hand that could be interpreted as a weapon, not even a shovel. The expression on his face was welcoming. "He was not a threat," Morlock later confessed. Morlock and Holmes called to him in Pashto as he walked toward the

[lbo-talk] The Kill Team

123hop at comcast.net — Tue, 05 Apr 2011 18:34:12 GMT

Looks like Rolling Stone article on Afghanistan's Mylai is available to all: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327?print=true Joanna

[lbo-talk] The Kill Team

123hop at comcast.net — Tue, 05 Apr 2011 18:32:55 GMT

Looks like the Rolling Stone article on Afghanistan's Mylai is available to all: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327?print=true Joanna

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Peter Fay — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 15:51:03 GMT

On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: > > Facts are important - but endless demand for more and more facts is a > serious aid to capitalist oppression. > > There needs to be some sense of priority, of separating the relatively few > facts needed from the infinite deluge of facts available. *Emperor:* Well, I mean, occasionally it seems to have... How shall one say... How shall one say, Direktor? *Direktor:* Too many notes, Your Majesty? *Emperor:* Exactly! Very well put. Too many notes. *Mozart:* I don't understand. There are just as many notes, Your Majesty, as are required; neither more nor less. *Emperor:* My dear fellow, there are in fact only so many notes the ear can hear in the course of an evening. [hesitates] I think I'm right in saying that, aren't I, Court Composer? *Salieri:* Yes. Yes. On the whole. Yes, Your Majesty. * * -- Peter Fay http://theclearview.wordpress.com

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

// ravi — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 14:41:03 GMT

On Mar 29, 2011, at 8:46 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: > < > > There needs to be some sense of priority, of separating the relatively few > facts needed from the infinite deluge of facts available. > To learn is to eliminate Jean-Pierre Changeux ravi

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Carrol Cox — Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:46:42 GMT

Every so often on this and other lists I recall an episode from a book that I don't much care for: Tolkien's Ring. Gandalf is jawing with Saruman, and suddenly stops short & says I've go things to do and this jawing is interfering with important things. At some point the demand for more and more and more and more facts becomes an almost deliberate filibuster. At the very least it denotes either ignorance of or contempt for the tasks of leftists who are engaged in trying to build resistance to the monster of world capital or to ameliorate on a local level at least the harm it continuously imposes on all. Facts are important - but endless demand for more and more facts is a serious aid to capitalist oppression. There needs to be some sense of priority, of separating the relatively few facts needed from the infinite deluge of facts available. Carrol -----Original Message----- From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org] On Behalf Of OECDObserver world S

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

OECDObserver world — Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:14:58 GMT

On 29 March 2011 14:34, Peter Fay wrote: > On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 1:41 PM, OECDObserver world > wrote: > > > What I said was the present Canadian government could not locate Libya on > a > > map before the onset of the civil war. That a handful of Canadian > business > > people who could may or may not donate to the Conservative party of > Canada > > is a moot point. To the extent that this government has any foreign > > policy > > with respect to North Africa in general and Libya is a function of its > > default stance. Pro-resource extraction, pro-US foreign policy, pro Nato > > and pro-military spending. None of which have anything to do with the > > value > > of civilian lives. > > > > True. Canada supports Canada's corporate interests - which are usually the > same as the US, though not always. No disagreement. I do believe though > that > regardless of the ignorance of Canada's government, they will get a call > from cor

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Peter Fay — Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:34:31 GMT

On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 1:41 PM, OECDObserver world wrote: > What I said was the present Canadian government could not locate Libya on a > map before the onset of the civil war. That a handful of Canadian business > people who could may or may not donate to the Conservative party of Canada > is a moot point. To the extent that this government has any foreign > policy > with respect to North Africa in general and Libya is a function of its > default stance. Pro-resource extraction, pro-US foreign policy, pro Nato > and pro-military spending. None of which have anything to do with the > value > of civilian lives. > True. Canada supports Canada's corporate interests - which are usually the same as the US, though not always. No disagreement. I do believe though that regardless of the ignorance of Canada's government, they will get a call from corporate capital telling them precisely what position to take. That's their job, after all. > The point was not th

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

OECDObserver world — Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:41:40 GMT

What I said was the present Canadian government could not locate Libya on a map before the onset of the civil war. That a handful of Canadian business people who could may or may not donate to the Conservative party of Canada is a moot point. To the extent that this government has any foreign policy with respect to North Africa in general and Libya is a function of its default stance. Pro-resource extraction, pro-US foreign policy, pro Nato and pro-military spending. None of which have anything to do with the value of civilian lives. The point was not that the Canadian or any western government does not have specific interests motivating violence in foreign countries the point is that they almost *always* do and we do not need to waste time debating if Suncor or Bechtel or ACME universal minor mega Corp is behind it or not. Nor do we need to waste time taking very serious positions on whether it is the oil they want or a price move on oil, access to cheap labour or the cheapening

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Peter Fay — Tue, 29 Mar 2011 14:14:36 GMT

Canadian government has no knowledge of Libya? Seems strange, since Canadian capital knows quite a bit about Libya - after all, they have over $2 billion in Libyan deposits in their banks and lots of Libyan oil and extraction services. SNC Lavin has about $1b in projects in Libya, and Suncor pumps 50,000 barrels a day from Libya - more than the largest American oil company (Conoco-Philips). Can you explain again why you guys are so interested in not 'wasting time studying the alleged facts'? Seems that might lead one, for example, to grossly underestimate Canada's interests in fostering war in Libya. http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2011/02/28/f-canadian-companies-in-libya.html A handful of major Canadian companies, including engineering company SNC-Lavalin and oil firm Suncor Energy, have substantial projects in Libya. Oil ventures in Libya typically require foreign firms to pay cash bonuses and put up capital in return for a share of proceeds from a joint venture. Neither SNC-

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

OECDObserver world — Tue, 29 Mar 2011 02:22:15 GMT

I am with Carrol, The present Canadian government could not locate Libya on map prior to the start of the civil war. They are busy trying to sell the Canadian electorate on a fleet of new F-38s, and pursue deep integration with the US. The rebels decided to mount a violent insurrection knowing full well they had not the means to win nor any more of a general mandate to govern than the General himself. The tell to this whole adventure is that the West is not simply protecting civilians but inveighing on the side of one fraction in the civil war. The UN resolution would have sought to cover all civilians not just those on the side of the rebellion and would have demanded that both parties sit down and hammer out a solution. The fix was in because "we" the citizens of the West were presented with one of two options: Are you for or against the murderous General. On 28 March 2011 18:40, Wojtek S wrote: > Doug: On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:23 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: > > >

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Doug Henwood — Tue, 29 Mar 2011 01:27:20 GMT

On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:43 PM, Joseph Catron wrote: > On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: > >> I see no reason to waste time studying alleged "facts" >> >> This deserves a bumper sticker. > > > When we all joined the list, did we skim past some fine print giving you the > right to our utterances here? You could make a bundle on T-shirts. Nope. I'm not that kind of guy.

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Wojtek S — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:40:01 GMT

Doug: On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:23 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: > I see no reason to waste time studying alleged "facts" This deserves a bumper sticker. [WS:] I think Carrol is actually up to something, despite his rather abrasive mode of presentation. The idea is to "keep your eyes on the prize" instead of being distracted by factoids manufactured by the bourgeois noise machine. In other words, focus on what is important to achieving your political goals instead of being preoccupied with details that are at best tangential, such as opinion polls, who said what, etc. Of course, the trick is to avoid being blinded by your dogma, but that requires keeping a balance between focus on the "prize" and paying attention to details. Wojtek

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Carrol Cox — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:14:31 GMT

No one sane sees any reason to study the alleged facts re Roswell or the 911 Conspiracy. Debating those wet dreams is a waste of t ime. Similarly, no one who calls him/herself a leftist should see the necessity or usefulness of painful study of the alleged facts behind the latest criminal war waged by the US and/or the EU. Those powers don't go to war for any reason other than the global interests of capital. I seriously doubt the mental soundness of anyone who thinks that we have to know everything -- and claiming that we need to know all the facts about internal Libyan affairs is the same as claiming we have to know everything before we can know anything. Nonsense. Carrol

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Joseph Catron — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:43:47 GMT

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: > I see no reason to waste time studying alleged "facts" > > This deserves a bumper sticker. When we all joined the list, did we skim past some fine print giving you the right to our utterances here? You could make a bundle on T-shirts. -- "Hige sceal �e heardra, heorte �e cenre, mod sceal �e mare, �e ure m�gen lytla�."

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Doug Henwood — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:30:24 GMT

On Mar 28, 2011, at 12:23 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: > I see no reason to waste time studying alleged "facts" This deserves a bumper sticker.

[lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team

Carrol Cox — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:23:05 GMT

Kneejerk negative reaction to U.S. foreign policy can never go wrong. It never has; it never will. I see no reason to waste time studying alleged "facts" behind that policy in any given instance. Again, I don't trust anyone on u.s. or EU foreign policy who hasn't read and absorbed Ellen Meiksins Wood's _Empire of Capital" and her concluding remarks on Endless War. I want to get around eventually to responding to Mike Beggs; his thoughtful post drew different conclusions from Wood -- which makes his argument at least an intellectually respectable argument for a leftist. But I think it's wrong. Carrol -----Original Message----- From: lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org [mailto:lbo-talk-bounces at lbo-talk.org] On Behalf Of // ravi Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 9:51 AM To: LBO List Subject: [lbo-talk] Rolling Stone: Kill Team For an idea of why it might be a good thing to oppose US/West intervention (as a knee-jerk reaction) in any Muslim/brown land, see: http://l.ravi.be/fkGHDu. -ravi ______